Earlier this week, in casual conversation with two other moms from Brianna's basketball team, I used the descriptive phrase "a woman from my Quaker Meeting". (My fellow Friends may already see where this is going.) While I sometimes say "my church" to avoid mucking up an otherwise normal conversation, it doesn't seem fully honest somehow, so I usually try to "speak plainly" as we Quakers are encouraged to do. On this occasion, my plain speech completely derailed the conversation about backyard chickens.
"Is that pretty much the same as Mennonites?"
"Well no, not really. Mennonites were around before Quakers."
It never got much less awkward than that. This is a homeschool basketball program which, while open to all homeschoolers, is run by members of the big Christian homeschool group in town. Our faith doesn't quite fit the norm of this group, which is tends to be theologically conservative. I don't mind being different, but I am just getting to know these women. I like them, and I want them to like me. I want them to be comfortable having their kids be friends with my daughter. Ideally, I would would choose to have them know me better before revealing all the details of how our theologies might differ. I would choose to have them see/hear my life speak for my beliefs before my voice. I know from experience that deep, satisfying discussions about faith are possible between friends when there is assurance that the relationship will endure in spite of difference. I don't yet have that assurance with them, thus I was wary. Alas, my reluctance to have this conversation resulted in a weak and probably confusing explanation of Quaker faith and practice.
So it was awkward, but we muddled through. I wasn't the only one feeling the discomfort. One of the women kept saying "Well, we'll all end up in the same place in the end -- we'll all be one big family." I smiled and nodded, but I should have made it more clear how very much I agree with her; I really wish I had. In any case, I believe our nascent friendships survived the incident. For that I am grateful.
I'm left not knowing quite what to do with this experience. Would a more confident and clear description of Quaker theology have served the situation better? I'm not so sure -- it might have sparked debate or defensiveness, which I don't believe we're ready for. Yet I feel a little bad about my halting and awkward comments regarding the Quaker tradition that I respect so greatly. This is a matter for some seasoning I suppose. Something to think about in a quiet time or to bring into the Light of worship.
If anyone is willing to share, I'm curious to hear other people's similar experiences. Not just from Quakers either -- I'm sure people of every faith must find themselves "outed" as the oddball belief from time to time. How have you responded and how did it turn out?
New mercies I see
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Have you heard the saying that the secret to a long, happy marriage is
falling in love over and over again, each time with the same person? I
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7 years ago
20 comments:
He Stephanie,
Great post. I have grown fairly comfortable when talking with theologically conservative christians by focusing first on the common ground. I usually say something like "Quakers seek to be friends and followers of Jesus, including his example of being wide open to the love, presence, and guidance of God's Spirit. At our best, we also work hard to foster the fuller emergence of the Kingdom of God on Earth." This statement is true, seems to build common ground, and allows a deeper discussion to emerge if other folks want to go there. Anyway, that is my own thought on this situation. Do you think this might have helped you in this situation?
That sounds like a good, encompassing statement, Steve. I am housebound, and the only Quaker in my village; my care workers have never heard of Quakers, and have responded with:
Is that like the Rotary Club?
Oh, is that because you like porridge?
And the best one yet:
I don't believe in all that God stuff. I'm a Catholic...
It's started some good discussions, though :)
I've experienced the same dilemma, Stephanie. People aren't usually very familiar with Quakers, and so it's sometimes easier to say "church," because if you say "Quaker meeting," you don't get to hear the great advice about keeping chickens, or whatever. In my experience, a lot of people aren't even aware Quakerism is a religion, so it's easy to open up a can of worms.
I generally say "Quaker meeting," though, because I don't think of us as a church. If people say, "Oh, is that like a church?", however, I will say yes.
And that Quakerism is hard to explain is exemplified by the fact that Steve's statement would not at all express my experience or understanding of my Quakerism...or, at least, it expresses it in language I wouldn't be comfortable using.
My short introduction to Quakerism is definitely still evolving, and I always feel I do a poor job in a short, casual conversation. I can talk about Quakerism with someone for an hour, but saying anything useful in two minutes is a lot harder.
I tend to focus on the idea of "that of God in everyone," and to briefly describe silent worship. Sometimes people then view us a very impoverished--one nice Lutheran once told me she felt sorry for me for not having communion. I said that we do experience communion, just not as a formal part of worship.
One great thing about this conversation is that no matter how badly you manage it one time, you'll get lots of opportunities to try again!
Hi Stephanie,
It's funny you should post this, as this happened to me on Tuesday and I have been wondering the same thing! I met a homeschooling mom new to Austin at our neighborhood park. It came up that we are Friends and it completely dominated the rest of our conversation. I was glad to talk about my faith, and she seemed genuinely interested, but at the end of our playdate at the park, I got the impression that she had written us off as potential friends since her family is evangelical/protestant. :( I was also dissatisfied with my explanations, which came in fits and starts and 'oh, and this' and 'oh, and that'. I tried to step carefully, yet speak plainly, but her eyebrows kept raising.
I really like Steve's response. It speaks to my experience of Friends... so, thanks, Steve!
And how true, Su, that more opportunities will arise for us all.
Thanks for posting this, Stephanie!
I am not a Quaker but I do know exactly what you're talking about. Having been raised in a Catholic home and converting to Southern Baptist it made me the oddball in my own family. They keep waiting for me to 'try and save them'...LOL. This makes me giggle a little because I truly believe that God 'saves' people. It has sparked interesting conversations and I always encourage them to find out for themselves what they truly believe. That the *religion* does not make a person worthy, but their faith. Now that I am in a predominantly Catholic part of the country I have seen these things come up again. Ugh...people. LOL
Hi Stephanie,
This is an issue I face ALL the time, now that I live in Kentucky. While we have a good Quaker meeting here, other people seem to have even less awareness of Quakers than in other places I've lived. Part of the challenge here is that there is a "living history" type place nearby called Shakertown, which shows what life was like for Shakers in the past. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this! So, for example, when the Baptists come to my door and try to lure me with their church festivals featuring knife-throwing and tomahawk-tossing, and I try to explain that this really doesn't appeal to me so much as a non-violent Quaker (or when I try to decline my neighbor's generous offer of a shotgun to protect the new generator we'll get as insurance against future ice storms), Shakertown is what people think of when I say "Quaker". That or oatmeal :) I, too, find myself using "church" instead of "meeting", and I also worry that I am not being true to myself or to speaking plainly when I do so. Your posting has inspired me to be true to myself, my faith, and my beliefs. I'll let you know how it goes...
Steve, I replied to you via email, but thanks again. I may adapt your words to form my own "stock" description!
Heather, LOL about that Catholic comment! Someone actually said that??
Su, you are right about having more opportunities! We should have an adult religious ed class where we roll play this kind of situation. ;o)
Jennifer, how interesting that we had such similar experiences. I'm sorry you felt that mom kind of wrote you off. That's disheartening.
Angela, thanks for your thoughts, as always. Hope you are finding a comfortable church home there in NE.
Kristen, "Shaker"... "Quaker"... I can see how it's confusing, but it must be hard to have to explain all the time. Glad you survived the ice storm! I'm giggling about needing a rifle to defend your generator. :o) Alexander would be SO into tomahawk tossing, lol!
Stephanie
Oh yes! I have these sorts of conversations all the time! I've been homeschooling for 18 years. I'm the only Quaker homeschooler in my area. I belong to the secular homeschool group but have regular interactions with the HUGE conservative Christian group. Neither really understands me :-) In addition I belong to lots of ecumenical community groups. The conversations about Quakerism are pretty well constant.
My favorites from the last couple of months: From an older Catholic member of a new ecumenical class I'm taking, : "So you are Quaker? I've seen Quaker women before on the bus down in PA and they wear long dresses and bonnets. How come you don't dress like that?"
One person in the same class brought up celibacy. She thought Quakers were celibate, and wanted to know how that worked! :-) I explained she was thinking of Shakers. But thought it was a weird question to ask of a mother of 4!
But my favorite recent one was the mom of a kid I tutor: "So what religion are you again?" , Quaker, "Oh I thought you were Mormon. Aren't they the same thing?"
Sometimes, like in the cases above, the conversation just stalls out. Over the course of the class they've gotten a better idea of what its all about. The tutoring mom and I just avoid religion in our discussion! Mostly I try to build common ground and have had a number of wonderfully deep conversations as a result.
I occasionally use the expression "Christianity distilled to its simplest form." I try not to say its purest form.
Did you read the article in Friends Journal last year by Kat Griffith about her adventures in navigating these minefields with her homeschooling group? That was more about the political aspects than the theology, but it's a beautiful article.
The good thing about being part of an ongoing group is that you will have other opportunities to show what you believe through the way you live your life, rather than just the way you explained it on one certain day.
My two linner is "As a Lutheran I whorshiped God. As a Quaker I commune with God". For me this describes the differance and why I choose to be Quaker
Perhaps the problem comes from trying too hard to justify ourselves as a worthy minority. Could we turn the question around and ask about the other person's faith and then begin a conversation about what we have in common?
It's fascinating to see the role of homeschooling in all this: this is bringing a lot of us out of our comfort zones into places where we have to describe ourselves. My wife left Friends about five years ago to return to Catholicism so I'm used to being the oddball Friend in that social set. And we home school our older boy which puts us in Evangelical circles. I usually follow the "let our lives preach" model. Most people just want to confirm that I'm a Christian and a decent person (yup and yup) and don't want a history or theology lesson. If they press I get into an existential dilemma. Do I give the standard Quaker talking points, the traditional Quaker theology which is still pretty strong in our official "Faith and Practice" and still the basis of much of our outreach literature? Or do I describe the real belief in the local meetings?
In my experience, most Evangelicals are very aware about the differences between religious tradition and actual practices. I tell people I'm a traditionalist Quaker, that I'm a small minority in this area and that there are Quakers believing all sorts of wacky things. Then I'm free to talk like some radical like Howard Brinton! Usually they perk up and ask me about the wacky stuff. The door now open, they start sharing their Quaker stories. I wish they were confusing us with the Amish or Shakers! Maybe it's the concentration of meetings or Friends schools around here, but people usually have impressions of Quakers and have held back asking me questions because they didn't want to offend me. Most people respect us but are completely confused by us.
Finding the intersections of faith opens up a dialog with those who inquire about us. Later on we have to admit to the Mulligan Stew that Quakers have become in the 20th and 21st Century. I love all the branches of Friends. Their leaves are lovely.
Hi Stephanie,
One of the things that I found helped with the awkwardness of explaining Quakerism to people was to get used to explaining it. In our meetings we often don't spend a lot of time talking about our beliefs so we are not used to explaining them, especially in a 30 second "elevator speech" (An elevator speech is what you would use to explain an idea or pitch a business proposal if you unexpectedly found yourself in an elevator with the person who could fund your idea.)
The second problem is that, since we don't often talk about our beliefs, we are not sure ourselves what we believe. There is nothing like hearing the words come out of our mouths to clarify our thoughts.
I have found it easiest to formulate what I believe and, if appropriate, mention that there are a wide range of beliefs among Friends.
Good luck and blessings,
Will T
Wow, what a treat it is to read so many ideas and experiences. Thank you all!
Stephanie
Isn't it wonderful to have so much support around such a straight-forward yet complex question?
I find that my answer about "Just what is Quakerism...?" will differ, depending on the type of relationship I have with the person(s) who are part of the conversation.
I often talk about what Quakerism looks like "from the outside looking in" and what it looks like "from an insider's perspective." I also sometimes add, much as Will T has pointed to in his comment, that since "my Quaker community" worships mostly in silence, it's a challenge to describe such a rich faith tradition in a short time and off the cuff.
Then I usually end my part of the conversation by saying, "Come and see. It's something that's worth experiencing."
Blessings,
Liz Opp, The Good Raised Up
P.S. A couple of other links that might interest you: Wess recently wrote something similar in response to "What is a Quaker?" And the article that Robin M mentioned can be found on Friends Journal's website here.
Stephanie,
I publish a magazine for Quakers in Arknsas, called The Carillon. I would very much like to print your article. Would you give permission for me to do so?
Tina Coffin
My email is jotucof@aol.com
Stephanie,
This is Tina Coffin again. In my previous comment I made a typo in my eamil address. It is
joticof@aol.com
Tina
I'm arriving late to this conversation, Stephanie, but I do know exactly what you mean. I am very involved in my Episcopalian church, but my experience with church isn't what is considered typically churchy and my religious views aren't "standard Christian". Our church very liberal in theology and in the way we express our spirituality. Meditation and poetry are parts of what we do...too much to explain here, but to say that I feel uneasy sometimes when casually mentioning church to someone who doesn't know me well, as I don't want to be seen in light that doesn't reflect me. But you're right in that it takes time and conversation to dig deeper than "In my Quaker meeting" or "at my church".
My best response was, 'Isn't that a sect?' Short answer, um, no. I am also conservative theologically so I get people really confused. I prefer not to discuss religion in a casual way because I find most people really aren't all that interested but I'm in Oz & our outlook on things religious is rather different to America.
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